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My name is Hallan Turrek. This is my blog.

Monday, August 23, 2010

EVE Blog Banter #20: Logical Fallacy

If you're completely fresh to blogging, let me sum it up quickly: A blog banter is where a bunch of bloggers answer a simple question. CrazyKinux runs ours.

With the recent completion of the 3rd installment of the Hulkageddon last month, @CyberinEVE, author of Hands Off, My Loots!, asks: "Griefing is a very big part of EVE. Ninja Salvaging, Suicide Ganking, Trolling, and Scamming are all a very large part of the game. What do you think about all these things? You can talk about one, or all...but just let us know your overall opinion on Griefing, and any recommendations you may have to change it if you think it's needed."

Lul wat?

I am laughing at you if you think for a moment that Ninja Salvaging, Suicide Ganking, or Scamming are "griefing". So is that cat. The only thing on that goddamned list that is actual griefing is trolling. And that's tame in comparison to how bad the stuff that ISN'T griefing can be. This question gave me a serious WTF moment.

Why is it that in a made up world with it's own economy and it's own laws, that people think only blowing up each other's space ship is PvP? News flash geniuses, it ain't.

Lets take a look at the word "griefing" for a moment:

Source One: "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that purposely irritates and harasses other players."


Source Two: "Griefers - differ from typical players in that they do not play the game in order to achieve objectives defined by the game world. Instead, they seek to harass other players, causing grief. In particular, they may use tools such as stalking, hurling insults, and exploiting unintended game mechanics,"

Nope. This is probably the most complete definition and I bolded the important part for you.

Source Three: "Griefers - Players in online games that spoil the game for you"

Yeah ok. This one might fit, but it's so broad that anything that someone else does that you don't like falls into this category. Then again, this one is lifted from a glossary of Wii terms, so that may be why it's assuming you're some softy.

This cat also owns a Wii.

So lets assume you're not a complete wuss for a second. Lets pretend you signed up for a game that advertises sandbox play with complete knowledge of what that entails when it involves other people. I'm going to assume you're not an idiot, cause that's what I'd want from you.

In EVE, there are approximately 3 accomplishments you can really go for.

1: Isk and Assets. Collect more than anyone else and you win.

2: Sovereignty. Collect more than anyone else and you deal with a logistical nightmare that will haunt you even when you're not online and make you wish sometimes that you didn't have a second job called EVE. Or something like that.

3: Killmails/Reputation. Get a better rep than anyone else at something and run with it. Or just collect the most kills.

Is this the only guy in the world that gets this shit?

How does Ninja Salvaging not fit into collecting more isk and assets? How does scamming not mean collecting more isk and assets(and if you play your cards right, sovereignty)? The very definition of a successful suicide gank is to make money at it, and if you're not, you're doing it wrong. Hulkageddon had prizes you know. If it didn't, participation wouldn't have been quite so good. Even if you're not profiting, the killmails are motivation enough!

None of that is griefing, and I take exception to them being painted as such. They're a part of why I play, not a reason I wouldn't want to.

Let me put it this way, if you're into PvE, I'm cool with that. I am not going to call you a pansy over it. You aren't, some of you appreciate the PvP(all of the PvP) going on around you. I like that. For the rest of you who truely are carebears though, check it out:

These Are Also Pansies.

If you could be a little bit less like those things, you'd probably get laid more. Oh, and you'd probably enjoy the game more or something.

I dunno. Peace.


  1. I reject your claim to define what 'griefing is about, for everyone who plays the game - or any game.

  2. Excellent post. To be honest, the carebears who stay docked up when I fly through a system are griefing ME by spoiling my gameplay. They should be randomly ejected 100K from the station--maybe even from their POS--to discourage such detrimental behavior. *grins*

  3. Well said, all!
    Especially you, Mynxee... I can see the petitions now ;-)

  4. I absolutely agree with your response. I've crafted a similar one from the PvE-er perspective on my blog. Without these things, it just would not be EvE and I would not be playing this game. As a newb I was scammed, I've had near-miss suicide ganks, I've been all blowed up at a low-sec gate (ignoring that warning is a bad thing), and I remember to this day being locked up by a ninja-salvager in MY!!! (lol) mission. In each case I learned something and kept on trucking.

  5. Where are the blog banters coming from? I see nothing on CK's site...

  6. Yeah, he does that. You'll have to contact him to get on his mailing list. If you think it's worth it, that is.

  7. Great post if you were replying to a carebear... But you aren't. Cyberin is a ninja salvager, ganker, and tear farmer. That's who he is, and what his blog is about. Telling him that he's too much of a carebear because he referred to those things as griefing looks pretty stupid in context.

    Nice cat pictures, though.

  8. Seems like missing the context just a bit yourself. I know who Cyberin is, I read that blog.

    I automatically assumed he was using someone else's lense to focus his words. This isn't any indictment against the poser of the question, it's an indictment against anyone who actually thinks that way.

  9. IMO: Griefer - someone who purposely tells you that they are out to make your eve life a miserable one.

    Really? Would that define a griefer in the Eve world? Not really. I mean, you can piss someone off really, really bad. If their game persona (and believe me, do not assume their game persona is the same as their RL persona) decides on endless vengeance, they can do it in ways that you would never know such as:

    1. Getting an alt toon to infiltrate your organization and then greif you in a myriad of ways.
    2. Getting a good merc corp/alliance to make your life a living hell.

    You can do both of those and the intended griefee is none the more aware of such an act.

    In eve, I consider nothing to be grief unless is has a sustained lifespan - more than 4 weeks in my opinion (long enough for a complete monthly pay cycle).

    We had a former ceo who pwned us (we were all noobs and carebears, just like the ceo) and then formed another corp to 'grief' us and force his former corporation to fall and collapse. That did not work, and months from that, he appeared again, the head of a noob merc corp, forcing ransom from us. That did not work, and he continually mailed us and demanded more and told us that he hated us and wantd us to fail in eve.

    Was that grief....borderline (with the I hate you and I want to see you fail), but not really. It was more of a pressure tactic to get us to pay when, after 2 weeks, we stubbornly refused to do so. Mercs/pirates gotta make a living too, after all, and they don't make money if they say 'ah, ok, you don't want to pay, no problem, we will go elsewehere, cheers'.

    None of that is, what I would call griefing. Lots of pilots would and in turn, they would petition ccp or quit the game and complain.

    That is why I love the sandbox - even when I am on the shit-end of the stick. Life is exciting when you have some drama and tension. Even for a carebear/part time pvp'er, I can see the value in that.

    My god, how many games have I played where the AI gets boring because all of a sudden, you realize that the 'enemy' has no personality nor any spontaniety? People make the game fun and exciting - all of them...and most certainly the pirates/scammers/charlatans/mercenaries of the 'verse.

  10. You know for the record, that guy's not actually a Merc. Mercs do jobs for money, ransoming people is not part of the equation. He's just a scammer.

    I was a Merc for a long time, and we got hired by people like you to hurt people like that all the time. But the rest of the points are valid I think. It's part of the fun.