If I were the king of the world
Tell you what I'd do
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the wars
And make sweet love to you
Three Dog Night - Joy to the World
I've given alot of thought to cloaking and it's inherent problems. I specialize in stealth bombers myself, so I feel somewhat qualified to talk on this subject. There are always simple solutions to the most complex of problems. Here's how I'd change cloaking to make it more fun, and more fair for everyone involved.
First, introduce cloaking signatures, which are much weaker signatures than most people are used to dealing with. It'll take an expert prober with very nice skills to track them down, it should require Deep Space Scanner Probes(and therefore astrometrics five). Once a hit is narrowed down, you'll warp on grid with the cloaked ship. You shouldn't warp in near enough to decloak it though.
Next up, a cloaking signature should show up on your directional scanner when you're on grid with a cloaked ship. They should be like probes, in that they won't show up at all on your overview. They shouldn't show up as brackets and should be unfilterable in the directional scanner. They'll be nearly impossible to track mid combat, since you'll have to pick them out of everything else.
What does this mean? It means that as long as you're online and paying attention, no one should be able to catch you if you're safed and cloaked. It means that ratters won't be able to stay safed up indefinitely in 0.0.(Say goodbye to macro ratters, CCP) It means that if you cloak coming off a gate but don't have a cov ops cloak you're going to be caught.
The cloak stops being an easy button.
Discuss.
Tell you what I'd do
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the wars
And make sweet love to you
Three Dog Night - Joy to the World
I've given alot of thought to cloaking and it's inherent problems. I specialize in stealth bombers myself, so I feel somewhat qualified to talk on this subject. There are always simple solutions to the most complex of problems. Here's how I'd change cloaking to make it more fun, and more fair for everyone involved.
First, introduce cloaking signatures, which are much weaker signatures than most people are used to dealing with. It'll take an expert prober with very nice skills to track them down, it should require Deep Space Scanner Probes(and therefore astrometrics five). Once a hit is narrowed down, you'll warp on grid with the cloaked ship. You shouldn't warp in near enough to decloak it though.
Next up, a cloaking signature should show up on your directional scanner when you're on grid with a cloaked ship. They should be like probes, in that they won't show up at all on your overview. They shouldn't show up as brackets and should be unfilterable in the directional scanner. They'll be nearly impossible to track mid combat, since you'll have to pick them out of everything else.
What does this mean? It means that as long as you're online and paying attention, no one should be able to catch you if you're safed and cloaked. It means that ratters won't be able to stay safed up indefinitely in 0.0.(Say goodbye to macro ratters, CCP) It means that if you cloak coming off a gate but don't have a cov ops cloak you're going to be caught.
The cloak stops being an easy button.
Discuss.
I hear there's these newfangled wormhole systems that are even worse: Not only you can't probe down the cloaker, you can't see him in Local either! ;-)
ReplyDeleteA mate and I discussed this once. We came up with a special anti-cloaking ship, destroyer-class, which would be able to fit a special probe-launcher which only fires probes that can detect the electromagnetic signature of a cloaking ship, and it would be able to fit a special sort of launcher which would create a chaff field of a certain diameter (either acting like a bomb, so it could be fired at a cloaking ship, or like a warp-disruption field, centred on the anti-cloaker -- we hadn't descided) which would act like tons of tiny frozen corpses. Like a corpse, the chaff wouldnt bump ships off-course, but they would decloak a ship or prevent it from cloaking. The field would only last a few seconds, and couldn't be released immediately on top of gates or stations (we *were* considering the poor nullseccers, too -- it'd have to be a certain distance away from structures) but if the cloaker wasn't on the ball, it would mean a very dead cloaker.
ReplyDeleteAnd obviously, exerything would be very expensive and require pricey skillbooks and high-end training, because if *everyone* has these ships, it breaks the systm *too* much.
A cloaked ship is like a submarine. When it is not visible, you should be able to detect the engine noise, or detect comm signals. Even the sounds of footsteps in the hull.
ReplyDeleteObviously, we are talking about space here, so sound is not a good detection method, but engines must leave a temporary energy trail of some sort. FTL-communications must be detectable to anyone in the area, even if they can't understand them.
I think that if the covops pilot wants to stay hidden ("silent running") then it should be possible to stay completely hidden (even from local?), but if they are giving information on a target on grid, or positioning for a good bomb/torpedo strike or warp in point, then they should be detectable with the right equipment.
And then we start to think of destroyers with depth charges... :)
I'm a covops pilot myself, and I think I would enjoy the challenge.
I agree. I also think that ship size should play a factor, in that hiding a small covert ops cloak is easy while hiding a battleship or titan should require a lot more effort and be easier to find.
ReplyDeleteThe specialized destroy class hunter is interesting as well.
I think that the closer a cloaked ship gets to a specially fitted ship, the easier it is to detect.
ReplyDeleteFor example, a frigate or destroyer could be fitted with a special sensor that detects the energy of a cloaking device, but cannot pinpoint it. They'll know a cloaked ship is within 100km, but that's about it.
The only problem would be that a cloaking detector creates a huge energy signature, making them easier to hit in battle. They're also slow.
They would make good early-warning ships for cloaked ships in the area, but that's about as far as I think changing the cloaked ships should work.
The suggestions here + local like w-space everywhere = I want! I believe it would solve a lot of problems and I have really fallen in love with the way w-space local works.
ReplyDeleteAll very well -- but what about we carebears who need the cloak to stay alive. We jump in, engage our CovOps cloak, and try to run through the system before we're ganked or bubbled. We're Just Passing Through, on our way (probably) to drop off toy dolls or garbage on a mission for a hi-sec agent whose LPs we need.
ReplyDeleteIf we could *buy* the LPs we probably would have; if we could have turned down the mission we would have, but we need those LPs.
I cn see how, if someone is in a Really Big ship with really Big guns, you probbaly want to know where/when he is -- I would. But us little fish (with maybe one gun, to cope with rats, and only mission cargo) do no harm, and yet you want to be able to fillet us like we were in Drakes or Megas.
(Makes whimpering nocie and goes to cuddle poniez)
eliminate the cloaking of non covert ops ships. Period. no more cloaking Ravens, no more cloaking Drakes no more period. Unless they are Black Ops or Covert Ops. IF you want to allow them to fit a cloak fine Use the ship models described below. AND eliminate the use of their guns for gods sake. This cloaking has gotten so far out of hand that it isn't even funny.
ReplyDeleteI'm just starting to play around with cloaking ships, so I only have a basic grasp of the mechanics.
ReplyDeleteBut I do have to say I like the suggestions here and I think it could make things more fair and interesting.
One thing I would add is that the level of skill in the dedicated cloaking ship CovOps, etc. decreases the cloaking signature strength. Not the skill in cloaking, but the skill in the specific ship.
I like this! I'd also be interested in the 'no local' idea someone posted too. Add a little more excitement to low-sec.
ReplyDeleteAs to the carebear above, this wouldn't affect you at all in the situation you described. If you are moving, even if there are cloaked scan mechanics it'd be damn hard to pinpoint you that fast. This is aimed more at AFK cloakys.
Must..not..be..sarcastic..
ReplyDeleteOh, who am I kidding?
A mate and I discussed this once. We came up with a special anti-cloaking ship, destroyer-class
And this new ship type could be called.. the interdictor, perhaps? We could even have a heavy version that emits an anti-cloaking field around it.
A cloaked ship is like a submarine. When it is not visible, you should be able to detect the engine noise, or detect comm signals. Even the sounds of footsteps in the hull.
Obviously, we are talking about space here, so sound is not a good detection method, but engines must leave a temporary energy trail of some sort.
Yes, and we could use specialized devices.. let's call them probes to triangulate the location of the ship.
I agree. I also think that ship size should play a factor, in that hiding a small covert ops cloak is easy while hiding a battleship or titan should require a lot more effort and be easier to find.
This needs to be implemented as well. I think we could call this.. signal strength, perhaps?
I think I should chip in with the brainstorming. We could have a module that decloaks stuff. We could call it.. a cloak scrambler or a cloak disruptor.
Seriously, good cloakers are pretty hard to catch, but a game of scissors-paper-scissors is not really the way to go.
FTL-communications must be detectable to anyone in the area, even if they can't understand them.
Actually, the official technobabble states that the fluid routers that make FTL comms possible don't actually send anything: Basically, they use pairs of particles that are synchronized regardless of distance: manipulate one, and the other reacts.. even if it's lightyears away in the cloaker's home system.
I posted a response on my blog.
ReplyDeletehttp://podlogs.com/thecaptainslog/2009/09/23/re-cloaking-is-broken/
Maybe the submarine analogy is a good one. IF the ship is 'running silent' then it has a better chance of staying unprobable. But if the hidey-boy is yacking it up on corp chat, then his cloak sig decays.
ReplyDeleteBy the same regard, a big non-specialized ship should not be able to be the same cloak level as a wee missioneer or especially not the same as a ship specifically designed to be invisible.
Similar to jamming, you would have modifiers that changed the findability of a specific ship with the hardest to find being a cov-ops frigate and the easiest being a bloody battleship pilot who is yacking it up waiting for a quick gank yank.
mike
http://podlogs.com/mikeazariah
I like the stuff suggested here. I definitely think this idea should be coupled with the local changes. Was going to be the subject of my next rant on what I'd change actually.
ReplyDeleteI still like my idea the best. ;)
wow this blog post got some serious writing juices flowing! good to see so many responses! and some really clever ideas.
ReplyDeletemy opinion? mm not sure yet i think. sitting on the bench i suppose. although i agree with a lot said here.
@ Shirrath - Ahh, but we were thinking that, unlike an interdictor, the chaff field system would be useable in lowsec ;)
ReplyDeleteThe point of having the specialised systems/probes, we figured, would be to prevent every Joe Schmoe from being able to field them. If you make them too easy to field, it breaks the system in the other direction.
Though implementing Hallan's cloaking signatures into that system could balance that issue entirely :D
@ Darina - Unfortunately, your system only works if the scout is using ingame comms options; a fleet using Vent/TS would get around that issue easily.
@ Manasi - I just had the thought that non-covert cloaks could have a time limit, to prevent non-covops from sitting afk in space for hours. Even the carebears will agree, I think, that having a non-covops pirate sitting cloaked in your mission waiting for you to return is a pain in the arse. If you remove cloaking from all but covops ships, it removes the tenuous safety line ninja-ratters already have (it's lame but there's nothing else to be done when you want your sec up). So put a decay timer on a non-covops cloak, say 15 minutes, and a one-minute activation refresh timer. for someone who's smart about it, this won't be that much of a setback.
I really like the submarine analogy!
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion, lots of excellent ideas! I like the idea of a timer on cloaks, shorter on the non cov-ops ones and longer on the supposedly more technically sophisticated cov ops one.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm all for no Local in Low and Null Sec. Having lived with it in the WH for awhile, I quite like it. Mystery and having to be responsible for your own situational awareness are 100% in line with the EVE way of doing things.
Good ideas above...
ReplyDeleteI completely agree non-specialist ships should not be able to "cloak" as well as say bomber.
Fundamentally I don't believe capitals should even be able to fit a cloak.
As for sub-capitals there should be a timer function, with length tied to the ship size.
The idea of a T2 destroyer makes a lot of sense for dealing with cloaked ships.
- Allow them to probe out non-specialist cloakers to the grid level... and non specialists to say 20-50km (approx).
- Use bombs (depth charges) to carrying out runs to "uncloak" the cloaked ship.